Curse

upier · Jul 12, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The problem is, though, that the balance in this sense relates directly to the difficulty.

This is what I am trying to tell you.
Balance does NOT relate to difficulty.
As I have said earlier - if you want to talk balance - then the the skill level of the foe should not be considered.
What you want to consider is - if Orison heals for 60 and WoH for 190 - are skills that deal 1k damage balanced?
Is Mandragor's Charge balanced compared to other shadowsteps?
Is something like Ursan Rage balanced compared to other KDs?

I don't feel that GW with it's balancing system (where PvP skills aren't balanced on the skill level because it should be a constant - but rather on the effect that they have compared to other skills! (That's the reason why touchies aren't killed off when they ARE overpowered in random arenas - because of the team build and the general level of skill shown there - but aren't nearly as big of a threat in stuff like GvG.)) can afford such skills.
And that's why something like Ursan is bad. It's not bad because it devaluates PvE achievement, it's not bad because it makes the game easy, it's not bad ... for whatever (subjective) reason - it's bad because in a game that relies so massively on balance - it's dancing way out of line.
That's the objective reason why Ursan should be killed. (And by Ursan I mean EVERYTHING that is dancing out of line.)

You just want the game to be more difficult.
And in that case - in PvE - pretty much nothing can be to difficult - because the foes are dumb and the players are able to exploit that. If they are good that is. (As you said!)
But that doesn't make it balanced (in the GW sense!).

The game can be broken (as in unbalanced!) yet at the same time have no difficulty whatsoever.
And that's what we are seeing now.

Bryant Again · Jul 12, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

See I can counter and cancel out your belief by stating I believe they made the CORRECT decision and GW is doing fine and well with the improvements.

You can't cancel my belief by flatout just saying I'm wrong. You provide a reasoning for it, too - in which case, you have to give me a reason of why catering to unskilled and unlearning grinders is good for the game.

GW was doing fine and GW is still doing fine for the most part. As I said in my previous post, GW was doing so fine that none of this was required. Unless ANet specifically wants to cater more to the impatient individual, which is even more mind-boggling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What you want to consider is - if Orison heals for 60 and WoH for 190 - are skills that deal 1k damage balanced?
Is Mandragor's Charge balanced compared to other shadowsteps?

In the "GW sense", no they are not balanced - and for good reason. We're not dealing with equals. We're not dealing with "like-minded" individuals. We're dealing with walls. ANet tosses a wall at us and it's our job, as a player and as a team, to figure out how to pass it.

You can never emulate a game to be as challenging and complex as it's PvP counterpart. Advocating for this kind of "balance" in PvE is the same as advocating balance for Diablo, Doom, and hell, Mario: For Diablo, there must only be one foe on the screen at a time, because if there's more than that it's unfair and unbalanced. For Doom, same thing - the player must only be fighting one demon at a time, and if there's more than that it's OP (and each one has to have the same health as the player). In Mario we have to remove all the bosses and replace each one with a koopa, because the bosses take numerous stomps to kill, whereas with Mario it only takes one (or two, if you got a mushroom) hit from anything to kill him.

This is the kind of "balance" you're advocating for. We're not dealing with players vs. players. We're dealing with players vs. environment, vs. monsters, vs. the AI. You can buff the AI all you want, but it will never have the sophistication in order to provide a decent "challenge". Instead, the damage and health of the baddies goes up - and yes, for many, many games, it provides a decent challenge. When you're confronted with a foe in God of War that deals a billion damage a hit with tough as hell armor, instead of throwing down your controller and saying "this is impossible!", you grin - because unlike the computer you have a mind, and are able to process and calculate problem solving to much broader degrees. When a monster sees you, all he sees is you. But when you see a monster, you'll pay more attention to his weak points. Granted, you can make it balanced, have the boss have the same everything as you, and have the monster pay attention to your moves, but would the Minotaur of Hades be as challenging and epic if he died in a couple of hits?

When it's against a computer, the rules are different. We're not dealing with Guild Wars, we're dealing with Guild Wars PvE. I'd only advocate for the curve in Normal Mode to be flattened a bit, but aside from that I see no trouble with giving monsters the tools they need to actual put a dent on me.

Welcome to video games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And in that case - in PvE - pretty much nothing can be to difficult - because the foes are dumb and the players are able to exploit that.

Exactly, so don't allow such exploitations to exist. When a foe is aggroed, have him be aggroed by all players within compass distance so as to kill the concept of tanking and the Holy Trinity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

...If they are good that is. (As you said!)

Exploiting =/= solving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The game can be broken (as in unbalanced!) yet at the same time have no difficulty whatsoever.
And that's what we are seeing now.

Precisely - which is why PvE skills suck. Unless you're saying the game wasn't providing any challenge before, in which case that further voids the purpose of giving players overpowered skills.